Ball joint front end

Siggymanx33 · Post by **Siggymanx33** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:54 am

Thanks for the offer Kev, I still need to get out is the garage and pull it apart to check it out. I've been lazy and it's been cold the last few days.

Siggymanx33 · Post by **Siggymanx33** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:26 am

Lee, Thanks for the advice, everything came off as you said it would. A few simple questions: Everything look ok with the grub indentations? I believe I have to remove the center of the outermost leaves opposite the indentations? How much do I keep for the spacing for the inner part of the control arms? or should I say the outer part of the leaves? Should I do all four outermost leaves or start with two or three and see how it feels?(top and bottom) I was thinking of using a mini zip tie inside the beam to hold the leaves together on the outside, any problem with that? When re-assembling, any tricks to finding the indentations at the center of the beam to have them line up with the grub? One simple observation...when I look at the indentations and the control arm. The way it is set up is leading to the extreme angle. what side should the internal indentation be on for the center grub screw? Are there indentations in the center? Fixing this is a major step in getting the whole chassis painted with POR-15. Everything else is completely off the frame and I can get to cleaning sanding and degreasing. That and I need several 50 degree days to apply the paint. Who knows when that will be. But right after painting the chassis, it's right back together as everything else is in good condition. Thanks for any help......

turbovair · Post by **turbovair** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:29 am

I am surprised that all-thread would stand up to the twisting. The two sides don't stay on the same parallel all the time unless the movement of the trailing arms isn't that great. I put a 3/8" torsion bar in my lower tube, use the grub screws on the two ends and a piece in the middle to allow the bar to stay centered in the tube. My manx clone rides very nice, I also have 100lbs inside the nerf bar on the front to offset the turbo Corvair engine hanging out the back. Steve Goodman Manx club #299 Manx clone w/turbo Corvair Denver, Co

fubar · Post by **fubar** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:25 pm

I am thinking the all thread acts as a giant nut and bolt that holds the LCA's on without twisting the rod itself???????? Seems like it would work ok.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:09 pm

Everything look ok with the grub indentations? Yes, they look just like they should. I believe I have to remove the center of the outermost leaves opposite the indentations? That's correct. Bruce did an article in Manx Mania on that. I would have to go through the old issues to tell you which one. The procedure said to remove sections from the outermost solid leaves, leaving the pieces with the indents in place. How much do I keep for the spacing for the inner part of the control arms? or should I say the outer part of the leaves? I would check inside the control arms to see how deep the steps for the leaves go in. I would cut them to match that length. Should I do all four outermost leaves or start with two or three and see how it feels?(top and bottom) That's a good question, and it all depends on how tired the leaves are to begin with. I replaced some solid leaves with sets of split leaves, so it was easy to stiffen it back up by putting a couple of the solid leaves back in. If you don't mind having to take the front end apart again, I would start by doing two leaves in one tube, run it for a while, then determine if you need to do the other tube. I was thinking of using a mini zip tie inside the beam to hold the leaves together on the outside, any problem with that? It may or may not work. Bruce said to use a THIN layer of epoxy and clamp the assembly in a vice until it is cured. The zip tie might allow too much movement to keep things in alignment. I never could get the leaves in when I tried Bruce's method. Maybe I needed to clean up the edges with a grinder. When re-assembling, any tricks to finding the indentations at the center of the beam to have them line up with the grub? I use a Q-Tip or similar object to clean the grease out of the hole in the tube. Use a flashlight to look inside. You should be able to see the indents once you get it all lined up. Do this for the trailing arms too. It's very important to get these lined up properly! One simple observation...when I look at the indentations and the control arm. The way it is set up is leading to the extreme angle. what side should the internal indentation be on for the center grub screw? Are there indentations in the center? There are indents in the center just like the ends. The angle looks extreme when it's all apart because the leaves allow quite a bit of droop when there's weight on them. Please let me know if I missed anything or if any of this isn't clear.

Siggymanx33 · Post by **Siggymanx33** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:03 pm

Lee, You are the man...... Thanks a ton for taking the time to answer my questions. It really makes it much easier when working on something the first time to know that I am on the right track. Thanks again.

jimnuss · Post by **jimnuss** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:46 pm

Kevin, Do You Know If The Top Tube Has All The Torsion Plates Installed? Thanks

CairoManx · Post by **CairoManx** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:19 am

[QUOTE="SiggyManx#33"] I did a quick measurment and it appeared as if the shocks that were on it were an inch or two too long.(quick measuremnt against my Manx) I plan on replacing the shocks so no worry. When I removed the shocks I thought the suspension would relax what apears to be a maxed angle. It didn't. The pictures don't really do the angle Justice but it certainly doesnt look right in person....[/QUOTE] Back to your original question: on a ball joint front end the shocks serve as the limit stops. If the shocks are removed the suspension will extend until the ball joints bind. Original design/length and can handle the stress of being the limit stops on-road, but off road can cause shock failure which can cause suspension over-extension which will in turn cause ball joint failure and loss of a wheel. That's why people who use a ball joint front end off road use the hook type limit stop.

Siggymanx33 · Post by **Siggymanx33** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:17 am

on a ball joint front end the shocks serve as the limit stops

Against over extension or compresion? I'm not sure how this relates to what I am working on....My control arms were maxed out and it looked as if my long shocks may have been holding the suspension fully extended. When I removed the shocks (that I believe are long) I though the suspension would relax a bit. It remained fully maxed and took considerable force to make it flex. (alomost as much as when the shockes were hooked up) Edit:...Are you saying that the long shocks could be actually keeping the suspension maxed?

CairoManx · Post by **CairoManx** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:15 am

[QUOTE="SiggyManx#33"]Against over extension or compresion? Are you saying that the long shocks could be actually keeping the suspension maxed?[/QUOTE] Against over extension. No, the too long shocks don't keep the suspension extended, but they ALLOW the suspension/trailing arms to hyper extend beyond its design limits, until the ball joints bind and are damaged. You're on the right track removing some of the torsion leaves to make the ride softer but if you're going to use a ball joint suspension off road, you should put in an upper and lower limit stop. The stock ball joint front end is designed to use the stock shock as the upper and lower travel limit stop. However a shock won't stand up to the beating it takes as a limit stop, off-road. When the shock fails, the suspension hyper-extends and damages the ball joints. Ball joints have been known to come apart off-road with catastrophic results. They come apart when they're damaged/worn out. The fastest way to make a ball joint fail is by damage from over-rotation. Link pin front ends have a rubber snubber between the trailing arms. On a ball joint front end you can either weld on limit stops or at least use a limit strap to prevent over extension.

Siggymanx33 · Post by **Siggymanx33** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:27 am

Gotcha, I was confused there for a second. The buggy will not be exposed to off road like you guys out west are used to and If worst comes to worse, I'll just install adjusters in my spare beam and tackle it that way. I'm just trying to keep moving with what I have. Thanks for responding though.

CairoManx · Post by **CairoManx** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:45 am

Best solution then is to remove a few torsion leaves and definitely use a stock specification shock.

CoKev · Post by **CoKev** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:28 am

Jimnuss, Yes it does have all the leaves in the top tube.

Siggymanx33 · Post by **Siggymanx33** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:04 pm

Best solution then is to remove a few torsion leaves and definitely use a stock specification shock.

That's the plan, thanks Cairo!

Manx Club

Ball joint front end

Kevin 893