Need Advice on a Frustrating Build

[L8ndeb]

Hello All,

If any of you have seen my couple of threads, you know I am going through a refurbish on a buggy that I bought from somebody who either couldn't read, didn't care, or was just plain ignorant.
The biggest problem is repairing the cut and weld of the chassis (See thread "Fix before Somebody gets Killed). I have exposed the passenger side of the weld, and it is worse than the drivers side. However, to make matters from bad to worse, when they did the cut, it is like they took a Sawsall and just cut down into the tunnel until they reached bottom. Now, I have read in countless websites, threads, and books, when you make the tunnel cut, be aware of the tubes running in the tunnel. "You do not want to cut these." was uttered in every article I read. Well, you guessed it, they are ALL cut.
Now that I have gotten off my soapbox, my question to all of you is, are these repairable in any way? If not, what is the alternative?

TIA

[ManxManiac]

Well... let's see... you need the clutch cable tube, the throttle cable tube & the fuel line!!! IMO... once you get the pan/tunnel squared away, I would remove the bottom of the tunnel so it is easier to get to the tubes!!!
Many years ago, a friend purchased someone's "f/g buggy project" & it had been butchered like yours!!! Since he loves a challenge, he decided to "repair" instead of replacing the pan!!!
The "throttle cable tube" & the new fuel line were fairly easy!!! He removed the what was left of both tubes & purchased a 10ft. length of hydraulic tubing in each size, installed & "finish-cut" to the needed length's ends!!!
The "clutch cable tube" was a bit more difficult, but not too bad!!! He came back from the front edge of the clutch tube about 12" & cut it off!!! Then he made a mounting bracket that held the front length solid in place!!! He removed the rest of the clutch cable tube, cleaned up each end & set it in place at the back of the tunnel, so the proper amount of it stuck out at the back of the pan!!! He "clamped it in place & bought a short length of steel tubing that would just slide over the out side diameter of the clutch tube!!! He slid it on the front piece of clutch tube about 1 1/2" & marked the back so it would slid over the front of the back piece of clutch tube!!! He could slide the tube over the back of the front tube, enough so he could do the same at the front of the back tube!!! Once there was about 1 1/2" over on both ends, he made a crimping tool out of a hex nut that just barely fit over the new tubing, by cutting the nut in half!!! He then used some high strength silicone to hold the nut halves onto the jaws of a pair of vise-grips & crimped the outer tube a bit to close up the small gap!!! Then he brazed the tubes together & finally had a one-piece "clutch cable tube"!!! He rechecked all of the mounting points, then reinstalled the bottom center cover of the pan!!!
It may sound a bit more difficult than it actually is, but it really is fairly easy!!! He's been running it for about 25 years & it has worked great!!!
Hope this helps or at least gets you going in the right direction!!!

BTW... his tunnel was so bad that he found a tunnel that he could cut out the amount/piece he needed to replace the really bad part of it!!!
Good Luck!!!

[lastmanx]

Hi, cutting through tubes happens a lot . signs of it are clutch chattering,poor shifting. the gas line can be run outside tunnel and covered up with carpet. all my buggies and kit cars are this way as generally they can rust out inside tunnel. if the cut is clean sometimes you can slide a larger dia pipe over it glue in place and it holds.this is the poor man fix but it works. cutting access hole on passenger side tunnel helps. be sure clutch tube is secured so no movement inside tunnel occurs. throttle tube same fix. park brake tubes don't matter as long as the rear section in trans horns is good. unfortunately many buggies are built by first timers without any idea what to do,i have met people who have cut through tunnel and had no idea they should not have,they described to me shift clutch problems,that after I asked and suggested fixes it was discovered they cut tunnel incorrectly.the previously described fix is better,but this may work.

[L8ndeb]

I have this question posted in The Samba as well, and got this reply that looks like it might work:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... 43#7850943

I just checked the underside of the tunnel, and I now know how this thing didn't just fall apart. There is about a 15" long piece of about 3/16" thick metal welded to the bottom, traversing the chassis cut. Who ever did that weld looks as if they knew what they were doing. Looks to have good penetration and is neat.
I would just like to cut all the spot welds and chuck the bottom piece of the tunnel. Anybody know if there is a reproduction bottom available anywhere? I've looked around and have not found anything yet. Otherwise, I have to deal with this big hunk of metal that looks to be rusted as there is no paint or anything covering that piece.

Again, TIA

[L8ndeb]

Just a quick question......
I got the chassis in two halves,
I get measuring front to back and "X" from the front and back shock towers to get things straight. My question is where do I check the two halves for levelness?

[lastmanx]

you can check level on front frame head top where front top torsion bar would contact . the rear can be checked at where shift coupler is accessed I used a magnetic carpenters level. as a tip milk crates work good for support if front beam is removed and rear engine transaxle is removed . back in year 1999 or 2000 hot vw magazine and vw trends covered this subject with good pictures and instructions as they were featuring the build of a signature series manx, of which I own and built using those instuctions. The signature series Manx came with no instructions it was assumed the buyer knew what to do, much later a instruction manual was produced and sent to me, My Manx was already completed by then. Good luck

[L8ndeb]

Thank you lastmanx for the tips. I will use them during the build. BTW, I am trying to locate the Hot VW mag you referenced. Could you be referring to the March 2002 issue?

[lastmanx]

sorry I think it was vw trends it was 1999 they ran articles monthly on build. But as to cutting tunnel, in the resources section of the manxclub in tech section are detailed instructions follow them. The vw trends articles showcase the build of signature series manx using all new parts it may not be that helpful unless your replacing everything. The manx tech article is basically the same.

[lastmanx]

Also as a side note (DO NOT TAKE THIS NEGATIVELY) the extra metal welded to the underside tunnel was a sign that things with the buggy were not correct. Let them be etched forever in your mind for when you look to at the next buggy you buy. I have seen and owned worse frames than yours. You need to educate yourself on Volkswagens and buggys, start here on the web site. in sponsors or venders is the Turn Key Manx business go look at it you will see what a good buggy frame should look like they have good pictures. Also learn how aircooled vws work. reading the john muir book will help along with a bentely manual. The bottom line is they are Volkswagen beetles with the body removed. they are a mechanical machine that needs to be maintained or repaired correctly. knowing what they should look like beforehand will help you spot problems with future buggys. the problem is everyone says they are easy to work on and cheap. easy if you are a mechanic not easy if you don't work on cars. NEVER assume any prior owner did regular repairs or maintanence on it. example; if you want to be sure front wheel bearing is properly greased take drum off and look yourself. it is the only way to be 100% sure. as far as cheap, replacement parts add up if its 40 years old chances are parts could be close to wearing out, you have to check it.if you find a buggy built in the 1968-1970's it was used off road hard and may never had been made street legal,its just how it was. I don't want to get you down, I started just like yourself 26 years ago (no internet,no manxclub) nobody gave a darn about old dune buggys I met local vw people and joined local vw clubs I listened and learned. I met the builder of my buggy at a car show he recognized it due ti its handy removable rear section. he said it was from a different buggy as mine had engine fire and was not done for convience, he then told me how owner rolled it leaving dents in gas tank from long tie rod hitting it and how it was always beaten driven hard. today I can build restore from scratch. I buy them broken unfinished and know what I am looking at and what it will take to fix it. some I walk away from. there is nothing that time and money can't fix. good luck and buggy on.
.

[L8ndeb]

Hello All,

Just had a couple more questions before I start measuring and welding.
First, when putting the two halves back together, may I presume that the bottom tunnel flange that the floor pans rest on and attach to, should be aligned as well as possible so the floor pans will have a level surface to attach to. Then heat and bang the top part of the tunnel into alignment with each other.
Secondly, the cut on this thing looks like the Mississippi River on a map.....not very straight. Should I grind the area to a point where the cut, lines up to reduce the gap between the two halves?

As usual, TIA

[lastmanx]

the top and bottom of tunnel are most important they should line up bang the rest to fit. if you grind for better fit be careful not to remove too much. the 14 1/4 is somewhat critical although the 1/4 would be the most you could remove. in your case getting a good weld is most important. what happens is when frame wheelbase is off the buggy body will not fit, although 1/4 inch won't show or effect much. draw a line with paint marker using a square on both pieces before grind. that means 1/8 off each half added together is 1/4 inch. measure twice cut once is the rule. in massachuttes where I live the popular local buggy brand was DESERTER they required the frame be shortened 10 inches. I had a friend who tried to swap a deserter body onto a 14 1/4 shortened frame. it would not work. the 4 inch difference was way too much.as to the floors they hold the seats and offer little structural integrity, they are stich welded to tunnel not continuous from vw. they seam seal and tar the hell out of them. as a note if you chose to weld them completely along tunnel do in small sections alternating from drive and passenger side due to weld can bend frame slightly throwing off measurements. use the level on top of tunnel. good luck

[L8ndeb]

Lastmanx,

Thanks for your advice. The thing I'm referring to though, is with the 14"+ taken out of the chassis, the tunnel openings where it was cut will not line up. So I am asking, should the bottom tunnel flanges, the lips the floor pan attaches to, be horizontal to one another so the pan can have a straight surface to sit on. I have read that when you align the bottom flanges like that, the rest of the tunnel doesn't match up because the shapes are different. The tunnel is more of a square (although not much) towards the rear, hence the need to heat up and bang away at it until it matches the shape of the front piece, or vice versa. Correct?

TIA

[lastmanx]

concentrate on the tunnel weld. bang the rear tunnel section to meet the front half. it is most critical that the tunnel be welded strongly. after tunnel is welded you can hammer flange where floor welds to become even or level; it is not important do not use it as a guide, instead make tunnel halves fit. as a thought did you carefully look over the underside tunnel area where pedals bolt up? on kingpin models they tend to rust in that area as well. also check condition of frame head underside as they rust also. while you have welder out weld the frame head continuous . it is only welded in couple areas from factory. by doing so you strengthen the frame considerably. I have seen buggys break apart at that point. my first buggy had to be repaired there, as I drove on the beach I could feel the steering colum shifting and moving about as I crossed ruts in sand, I drove 100 miles home to find it was only held together by the one inch weld on top of tunnel. I mention this so you don't waste time fixing a big mess when it may be actually easier to get a different frame and start over. when a vw frame is cut short for a buggy it is amazing how well it lines back up when done correctly. when I built my classic manx I got a decent frame cheap from local vw vender who was selling due to rear weld of clutch tube broke,it was convertible with junk floors
he swapped entire body to different frame. he knew I would have to relocate and weld the tube when shortened and would be putting in new floors. I did cut correctly with sawsall and had an experienced welder friend weld it together. he preferred using a stick weld on tunnel and wire feed on floors. anyway go to the turn key manx site see good pictures of what it will look like. to me the picture of a good shortened frame brings a big smile. good luck and get on with it.see you in the sand.

[L8ndeb]

Hello Last,

You are right about things fitting fairly well. After I cut the thing in half, then leveled it out, the tunnel lined up ok along with the pan ledges (for lack of a better term). However, I think I will have some gaps to deal with from the original cut. It looks as if I may have to add metal to keep the chassis length correct. Don't quite know yet as I just started the alignment procedure late last night.
I have the tunnel bottom off, as I am going to replace it with some either 1/8 or 3/16 thick sheet metal. In addition to helping stiffen up things, it will address an access hole somebody cut in it and never covered, plus give me access to repair the tubes that the PO cut. The inside of the tunnel looks surprisingly good. Surface rust, but no deep corrosion. The frame head looks to be ok as well. I will weld up the frame head as you suggested.
TIA

[lastmanx]

if you are going to put new floors in you will have to cut them to fit the shorter frame.when you cut them leave extra metal on the cut halves. 2inches extra works nice, by having more floor metal you can overlap them and then weld ,so you end up with a stronger section. double thick. it is extra work and if using vw seat rails a bit clever trimming. if not keeping seat rails, some cheap (less expensive) floors may have none or poorly welded seat rails, also may not have jack support which you don't want and will remove anyway. I removed mine as I don't use them, rather you don't remove completely,you trim them down because if they are quality floors they will add strength to the floor. as to floors I have built buggys using both cheap and good. the cheap are thinner metal and seat rails tack welded barely easy removal or to modify. good floors are thicker seat rails welded properly a lot more work to modify, necessary if using seat rails. if you plan to use seat rails buy best floors you can find. I have never had a buggy with vw seats or vw seat rails.if you need tips on installing non vw seats I can help you later.you have plenty to deal with. happy welding.